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DetroitGator
Sophomore Gator
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 188
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 Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:07 am Post subject: Please Read: What we are fighting against. |
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On June 21st, a close friend of mine named Sean Langan was realeased after three months in captivity here in Afghanistan. He went through several mock executions and lost 3 stone (42 pounds for us) and most of his teeth cracked from poort diet. If you google his name, he'll come up.
Sean makes documentaries for the BBC and Channel 4 in the UK and he is very good at what he does... won several awards. That said, it was a given that sooner or later Sean would either be captured and or killed as his documentaries involved his going in VERY deep with the Taliban in AF or with AQI in Iraq. Well, he was finally captured for being "a spy," but not killed. To stay alive, he did what he could to befriend his captors, and, as usual, over time, the Taliban chieftan talked to him more and more about "life in America." Yes, America, not the UK, for in much of the ignorant Muslim world, ALL white people are American... there are no Brits, Germans, French, Dutch, Italians, Romanians, Slovaks, Czechs... we are ALL Americans to them... they are that ignorant and I used that word by its definition, not as a put down.
I will get to see Sean next Thursday in London, but here is one of the stories he did tell...
One day, the chieftan came to him and asked the following, "Is it true that in America women can marry animals?" Sean was floored and wisely, instead of saying, "No" and insulting the only person keeping him alive, said, "I'm not sure, but that may be true." The chieftan said, "It is! I have seen pictures!" ... now those of you that jumped to beastiality, slap yourself, that's NOT where this is going! A few days later, the chieftan came back and asked him, "They can marry not just large animals, but small ones too!" He said that as if marrying a large animal is socially acceptable but a small one is out of the question. Anyway, Sean asked him what he meant and the chieftan said, "I have seen a picture of a woman kissing a frog." Sean asked him if the woman had something on her head and he frantically said, "Yes! Yes! You have seen the pictures too!"
Yes people, the leader of this district believes that American (read ALL white/Western) women marry small animals because he's seen a picture of a princess kissing a frog prince.
I know that you all know my belief that Islam is a deeply flawed religion (please let's not get into it now), but combine that with EXTREME illiteracy in most of the Muslim lands and therefore ignorance not only in terms of being able to read the Koran, but ignorance regardng damn near everything in life, and you can see what we are dealing with.
Honestly folks, the only way to change the world (regardless of religion) is through literacy, and unfortunately, in Islamic lands, there is ZERO incentive for mullah's to have a literate population and I really don't see any way of changing the schools without conquering/occupying the countries and educating everyone, men and women.
So really, our only choices are containment (which really wasn't working out so well either) or direct involvement (which is starting to work out in Iraq, I don't know that t will ever work in Afghanistan which is and may always be in the tribal stoneage).
But here is my point. For all of you who think that one can reason with or negotiate with everyone, this is the ignorance we are dealing with when you say that, so keep it in mind. Now I know this guy is a tribal man from Waziristan and some of you may say that he is not a good example, but I promise you this, Ahmadenijad and the religious leaders of Iran are better educated, but no less ignorant... remember, there are no gay people in Iran, they don't have that phenomenon like we do, and the Holocaust never happened.
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catsigater
Big Gator
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 1444
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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I've got a few problems with this, Detroit.
First, if we are now "promoting literacy" in Iraq, it is only as an accident.
Nowhere was "literacy in Iraq" mentioned among the casus belli in the run up to the war. The case for war hinged largely on the administration's belief that they could quickly install a new leadership in place of Saddam's regime (remember Chalabi?) and that we'd be in and out in a matter of "6 months" - leaving the Iraqis free to pursue life, liberty and happiness as we would - as anyone would. Of course, the Iraqi's may, and probably do, have a quite different idea what form such pursuits would take, but let's leave that aside.
And let's say this was a happy accident, and that it doesn't matter how we got there. Let's say "we're there, and we're making a difference" (which I believe to be the case). In what sense does our direct involvement promote literacy? Rebuilding a shattered nation's infrastructure may be a necessary condition for literacy, but it is by no means a sufficient one.
Are we to stay in Iraq until they've got a secular school system that promotes Western values of rationality and the scientific method? If that's the case, McCain's "100 years" may be a bit shortsighted.
And how is this model to be applied elsewhere? Iran is among the most educated populations in the Middle East. As you've rightly pointed out education, in the form of literacy, doesn't automatically wipe out ignorance of - nor hostility toward - another culture.
It's impossible that we can promote literacy, or stamp out ignorance in Iran, in the same way we did in Iraq (granting that we are indeed promoting literacy in such a way in Iraq.)
We don't have the forces required to do so.
This is my armchair intellectual take, and you're welcome to correct me where your experience shows me wrong, but it seems the mass of humanity under even the most dictatorial regimes carries on in more or less habitual fashion. Even in China and Iran, a great deal of scientific, artistic, and intellectual activity can continue.
But for the great majority, the priorities are safe streets, access to health care and schools for the children and some sort of security in old age. When these things are provided for, the rational option is acquiescence to even the most dictatorial regimes.
When the population turns to revolt against their overlords, religious or otherwise, it's not generally out of want for literacy, but out of rage against the incompetence of the rulers in providing the basic requirements of security. When food is scarce and homes can't be heated - when the trains stop running - that's when people rise up.
That's why we find the nostalgia for Stalin in the USSR.
The Chinese were no less virulent in their hatred for and ignorance of America during Vietnam. (Hell, check out the textbooks in Japan, which is by all standards both literate and democratic, and see what you find on The Rape of Nanking. Ignorance and revisionism are not restricted to dictatorships.) The chinese were no less revisionist in their history, yet we dealt with them through negotiation.
When the Chairman of The Joint Chiefs is strongly suggesting we talk to Iran, it seems that needs to be considered.
_________________
“Condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance.”
- Albert Einstein
Last edited by catsigater on Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:42 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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L-Boy
True Gator
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Please Read: What we are fighting against. |
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| DetroitGator wrote: |
On June 21st, a close friend of mine named Sean Langan was realeased after three months in captivity here in Afghanistan. He went through several mock executions and lost 3 stone (42 pounds for us) and most of his teeth cracked from poort diet. If you google his name, he'll come up.
Sean makes documentaries for the BBC and Channel 4 in the UK and he is very good at what he does... won several awards. That said, it was a given that sooner or later Sean would either be captured and or killed as his documentaries involved his going in VERY deep with the Taliban in AF or with AQI in Iraq. Well, he was finally captured for being "a spy," but not killed. To stay alive, he did what he could to befriend his captors, and, as usual, over time, the Taliban chieftan talked to him more and more about "life in America." Yes, America, not the UK, for in much of the ignorant Muslim world, ALL white people are American... there are no Brits, Germans, French, Dutch, Italians, Romanians, Slovaks, Czechs... we are ALL Americans to them... they are that ignorant and I used that word by its definition, not as a put down.
I will get to see Sean next Thursday in London, but here is one of the stories he did tell...
One day, the chieftan came to him and asked the following, "Is it true that in America women can marry animals?" Sean was floored and wisely, instead of saying, "No" and insulting the only person keeping him alive, said, "I'm not sure, but that may be true." The chieftan said, "It is! I have seen pictures!" ... now those of you that jumped to beastiality, slap yourself, that's NOT where this is going! A few days later, the chieftan came back and asked him, "They can marry not just large animals, but small ones too!" He said that as if marrying a large animal is socially acceptable but a small one is out of the question. Anyway, Sean asked him what he meant and the chieftan said, "I have seen a picture of a woman kissing a frog." Sean asked him if the woman had something on her head and he frantically said, "Yes! Yes! You have seen the pictures too!"
Yes people, the leader of this district believes that American (read ALL white/Western) women marry small animals because he's seen a picture of a princess kissing a frog prince.
I know that you all know my belief that Islam is a deeply flawed religion (please let's not get into it now), but combine that with EXTREME illiteracy in most of the Muslim lands and therefore ignorance not only in terms of being able to read the Koran, but ignorance regardng damn near everything in life, and you can see what we are dealing with.
Honestly folks, the only way to change the world (regardless of religion) is through literacy, and unfortunately, in Islamic lands, there is ZERO incentive for mullah's to have a literate population and I really don't see any way of changing the schools without conquering/occupying the countries and educating everyone, men and women.
So really, our only choices are containment (which really wasn't working out so well either) or direct involvement (which is starting to work out in Iraq, I don't know that t will ever work in Afghanistan which is and may always be in the tribal stoneage).
But here is my point. For all of you who think that one can reason with or negotiate with everyone, this is the ignorance we are dealing with when you say that, so keep it in mind. Now I know this guy is a tribal man from Waziristan and some of you may say that he is not a good example, but I promise you this, Ahmadenijad and the religious leaders of Iran are better educated, but no less ignorant... remember, there are no gay people in Iran, they don't have that phenomenon like we do, and the Holocaust never happened. |
Thanks for sharing. If there is anybody out there who thinks some of these people are anything short of uncivilized, they have their head in the sand. Their views are backward, abhorrant and barbaric. Are they the majority, I don't think so, but there are enough of them to be of concern.
First of all, one point about your friend. People like to bash the press for various reasons, but journalists risk their lives and well being in Afghanistan and Iraq all the time, and many have died. In many instances they exhibit the same level of courage as our troops do. For some reason that often goes unnoticed.
In terms of Afghanistan, if we are going to be involved, and it is probably inevitable, I would have preferred we would have not have been involved in Iraq so that we can put the appropriate level of resources in Afghanistan. We are arguably failing in Afghanistan, and Iraq is partly to blame. Iraq was run by a mostly secular government, and the level of education there was above average, at least in terms of the muslim world.
Now I am skeptical we can succeed in Afghanistant at all also. As you mention, some of these beliefs are deep seated and based upon religion. Trying to change that is very difficult. However, from a national security perspective we had to go in, and if you are going to do that, you need to try to do it right. Most of our troops being tied up in Iraq is not helping this situation.
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DetroitGator
Sophomore Gator
Joined: 29 Feb 2008
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Please Read: What we are fighting against. |
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| L-Boy wrote: |
| DetroitGator wrote: |
On June 21st, a close friend of mine named Sean Langan was realeased after three months in captivity here in Afghanistan. He went through several mock executions and lost 3 stone (42 pounds for us) and most of his teeth cracked from poort diet. If you google his name, he'll come up.
Sean makes documentaries for the BBC and Channel 4 in the UK and he is very good at what he does... won several awards. That said, it was a given that sooner or later Sean would either be captured and or killed as his documentaries involved his going in VERY deep with the Taliban in AF or with AQI in Iraq. Well, he was finally captured for being "a spy," but not killed. To stay alive, he did what he could to befriend his captors, and, as usual, over time, the Taliban chieftan talked to him more and more about "life in America." Yes, America, not the UK, for in much of the ignorant Muslim world, ALL white people are American... there are no Brits, Germans, French, Dutch, Italians, Romanians, Slovaks, Czechs... we are ALL Americans to them... they are that ignorant and I used that word by its definition, not as a put down.
I will get to see Sean next Thursday in London, but here is one of the stories he did tell...
One day, the chieftan came to him and asked the following, "Is it true that in America women can marry animals?" Sean was floored and wisely, instead of saying, "No" and insulting the only person keeping him alive, said, "I'm not sure, but that may be true." The chieftan said, "It is! I have seen pictures!" ... now those of you that jumped to beastiality, slap yourself, that's NOT where this is going! A few days later, the chieftan came back and asked him, "They can marry not just large animals, but small ones too!" He said that as if marrying a large animal is socially acceptable but a small one is out of the question. Anyway, Sean asked him what he meant and the chieftan said, "I have seen a picture of a woman kissing a frog." Sean asked him if the woman had something on her head and he frantically said, "Yes! Yes! You have seen the pictures too!"
Yes people, the leader of this district believes that American (read ALL white/Western) women marry small animals because he's seen a picture of a princess kissing a frog prince.
I know that you all know my belief that Islam is a deeply flawed religion (please let's not get into it now), but combine that with EXTREME illiteracy in most of the Muslim lands and therefore ignorance not only in terms of being able to read the Koran, but ignorance regardng damn near everything in life, and you can see what we are dealing with.
Honestly folks, the only way to change the world (regardless of religion) is through literacy, and unfortunately, in Islamic lands, there is ZERO incentive for mullah's to have a literate population and I really don't see any way of changing the schools without conquering/occupying the countries and educating everyone, men and women.
So really, our only choices are containment (which really wasn't working out so well either) or direct involvement (which is starting to work out in Iraq, I don't know that t will ever work in Afghanistan which is and may always be in the tribal stoneage).
But here is my point. For all of you who think that one can reason with or negotiate with everyone, this is the ignorance we are dealing with when you say that, so keep it in mind. Now I know this guy is a tribal man from Waziristan and some of you may say that he is not a good example, but I promise you this, Ahmadenijad and the religious leaders of Iran are better educated, but no less ignorant... remember, there are no gay people in Iran, they don't have that phenomenon like we do, and the Holocaust never happened. |
Thanks for sharing. If there is anybody out there who thinks some of these people are anything short of uncivilized, they have their head in the sand. Their views are backward, abhorrant and barbaric. Are they the majority, I don't think so, but there are enough of them to be of concern.
First of all, one point about your friend. People like to bash the press for various reasons, but journalists risk their lives and well being in Afghanistan and Iraq all the time, and many have died. In many instances they exhibit the same level of courage as our troops do. For some reason that often goes unnoticed.
In terms of Afghanistan, if we are going to be involved, and it is probably inevitable, I would have preferred we would have not have been involved in Iraq so that we can put the appropriate level of resources in Afghanistan. We are arguably failing in Afghanistan, and Iraq is partly to blame. Iraq was run by a mostly secular government, and the level of education there was above average, at least in terms of the muslim world.
Now I am skeptical we can succeed in Afghanistant at all also. As you mention, some of these beliefs are deep seated and based upon religion. Trying to change that is very difficult. However, from a national security perspective we had to go in, and if you are going to do that, you need to try to do it right. Most of our troops being tied up in Iraq is not helping this situation. |
Just a couple of things L-Boy... i would venture to say that in AF and Pakistan, it is NOT a minority or it is at least a very sizable minority. As I said before, in this whole swath of land from Inida west to the Med Sea, even the most educated people will say something that would floor you or I and it is so ingrained religiously and or culturally it's not even funny. As long as an OB/Gyn Doctor has to view a mirror to see the female genitalia instead of being able to look directly at it (let alone touch it, and I'm not kidding), you have no idea how far we have to go. As for the journalists, please do not compare them to the troops in any way shape or form. They are mercenaries, EXACTLY like the Blackwater types. They CHOOSE to come to these places, they are WELL compensated for good work, and a lot of them are adrenaline junkies. Don't go romaticizing it.
PS more troops in AF will not "fix" the problem, it will just drive it more into Pakistan like what is happening now... then we've created a new problem... an EXTREMELY unstable nuclear weapon holding Islamic state. Everything has an unintended circumstance just like us arming the Muj through the ISI in the 80's. Now we've come to "clean it up" and we're just pushing it into Pakistan. An unstable AF is far more palatable to an unstable Pakistan, trust me.
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L-Boy
True Gator
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Please Read: What we are fighting against. |
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| DetroitGator wrote: |
| L-Boy wrote: |
| DetroitGator wrote: |
On June 21st, a close friend of mine named Sean Langan was realeased after three months in captivity here in Afghanistan. He went through several mock executions and lost 3 stone (42 pounds for us) and most of his teeth cracked from poort diet. If you google his name, he'll come up.
Sean makes documentaries for the BBC and Channel 4 in the UK and he is very good at what he does... won several awards. That said, it was a given that sooner or later Sean would either be captured and or killed as his documentaries involved his going in VERY deep with the Taliban in AF or with AQI in Iraq. Well, he was finally captured for being "a spy," but not killed. To stay alive, he did what he could to befriend his captors, and, as usual, over time, the Taliban chieftan talked to him more and more about "life in America." Yes, America, not the UK, for in much of the ignorant Muslim world, ALL white people are American... there are no Brits, Germans, French, Dutch, Italians, Romanians, Slovaks, Czechs... we are ALL Americans to them... they are that ignorant and I used that word by its definition, not as a put down.
I will get to see Sean next Thursday in London, but here is one of the stories he did tell...
One day, the chieftan came to him and asked the following, "Is it true that in America women can marry animals?" Sean was floored and wisely, instead of saying, "No" and insulting the only person keeping him alive, said, "I'm not sure, but that may be true." The chieftan said, "It is! I have seen pictures!" ... now those of you that jumped to beastiality, slap yourself, that's NOT where this is going! A few days later, the chieftan came back and asked him, "They can marry not just large animals, but small ones too!" He said that as if marrying a large animal is socially acceptable but a small one is out of the question. Anyway, Sean asked him what he meant and the chieftan said, "I have seen a picture of a woman kissing a frog." Sean asked him if the woman had something on her head and he frantically said, "Yes! Yes! You have seen the pictures too!"
Yes people, the leader of this district believes that American (read ALL white/Western) women marry small animals because he's seen a picture of a princess kissing a frog prince.
I know that you all know my belief that Islam is a deeply flawed religion (please let's not get into it now), but combine that with EXTREME illiteracy in most of the Muslim lands and therefore ignorance not only in terms of being able to read the Koran, but ignorance regardng damn near everything in life, and you can see what we are dealing with.
Honestly folks, the only way to change the world (regardless of religion) is through literacy, and unfortunately, in Islamic lands, there is ZERO incentive for mullah's to have a literate population and I really don't see any way of changing the schools without conquering/occupying the countries and educating everyone, men and women.
So really, our only choices are containment (which really wasn't working out so well either) or direct involvement (which is starting to work out in Iraq, I don't know that t will ever work in Afghanistan which is and may always be in the tribal stoneage).
But here is my point. For all of you who think that one can reason with or negotiate with everyone, this is the ignorance we are dealing with when you say that, so keep it in mind. Now I know this guy is a tribal man from Waziristan and some of you may say that he is not a good example, but I promise you this, Ahmadenijad and the religious leaders of Iran are better educated, but no less ignorant... remember, there are no gay people in Iran, they don't have that phenomenon like we do, and the Holocaust never happened. |
Thanks for sharing. If there is anybody out there who thinks some of these people are anything short of uncivilized, they have their head in the sand. Their views are backward, abhorrant and barbaric. Are they the majority, I don't think so, but there are enough of them to be of concern.
First of all, one point about your friend. People like to bash the press for various reasons, but journalists risk their lives and well being in Afghanistan and Iraq all the time, and many have died. In many instances they exhibit the same level of courage as our troops do. For some reason that often goes unnoticed.
In terms of Afghanistan, if we are going to be involved, and it is probably inevitable, I would have preferred we would have not have been involved in Iraq so that we can put the appropriate level of resources in Afghanistan. We are arguably failing in Afghanistan, and Iraq is partly to blame. Iraq was run by a mostly secular government, and the level of education there was above average, at least in terms of the muslim world.
Now I am skeptical we can succeed in Afghanistant at all also. As you mention, some of these beliefs are deep seated and based upon religion. Trying to change that is very difficult. However, from a national security perspective we had to go in, and if you are going to do that, you need to try to do it right. Most of our troops being tied up in Iraq is not helping this situation. |
Just a couple of things L-Boy... i would venture to say that in AF and Pakistan, it is NOT a minority or it is at least a very sizable minority. As I said before, in this whole swath of land from Inida west to the Med Sea, even the most educated people will say something that would floor you or I and it is so ingrained religiously and or culturally it's not even funny. As long as an OB/Gyn Doctor has to view a mirror to see the female genitalia instead of being able to look directly at it (let alone touch it, and I'm not kidding), you have no idea how far we have to go. As for the journalists, please do not compare them to the troops in any way shape or form. They are mercenaries, EXACTLY like the Blackwater types. They CHOOSE to come to these places, they are WELL compensated for good work, and a lot of them are adrenaline junkies. Don't go romaticizing it.
PS more troops in AF will not "fix" the problem, it will just drive it more into Pakistan like what is happening now... then we've created a new problem... an EXTREMELY unstable nuclear weapon holding Islamic state. Everything has an unintended circumstance just like us arming the Muj through the ISI in the 80's. Now we've come to "clean it up" and we're just pushing it into Pakistan. An unstable AF is far more palatable to an unstable Pakistan, trust me. |
Whatever their motivations, I have a lot of respect for these journalists. They have a lot of guts. I am not romanticizing it - obviously they do it by choice, but so do at least some of our troops. I doubt compensation is a big factor in why they do what they do.
There is no doubt that there are large chunks, maybe majorities of people that hold views that we think at best are backwards and at worst barbaric. However, as much as we dislike these views, to some degree we have to accept is that is their societal view, is a collective choice, is often a function of religion, and is not something we can easily influence. So at what point does it become our business for our government to actively "reform" them? I would argue when it is a national security threat to us and/or it reaches the point of genocide. Beyond that, we can't fix the world, even if we want to.
You are right, Pakistan is really a bigger problem than Afghanistan. There are no easy answers there. It could get to a point to where we have to go in for national security purposes, and that is not going to be pretty.
Finally, we don't have a monopoly on views of morality, societal norms, etc. We view certain things as backwards. However, I am quite sure there are Europeans and others that look over here at our obsession with religion and people like George Bush who appear to be making decision based upon what God thinks, we electrocute people, torture people in prison, hold people with no reasonable due process. We walk around with guns and kill each other with guns about 10 times as much as the rest of world. We consume resources with reckless abandon and prop up bad governments in order to feed our addiction. So we need to be careful when we judge people on what we see as a backward world view or sense of morality.
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volsrock
Big Gator
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 1237
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| However, as much as we dislike these views, to some degree we have to accept is that is their societal view, is a collective choice, is often a function of religion, and is not something we can easily influence. So at what point does it become our business for our government to actively "reform" them? |
When people from their group kill over 3000 Americans in one day!
When people from their group by the "thousdands" chant Death To America!
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ShadowGator
Big Gator
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 1605
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe they are trying to reform us so we stop marrying small fury animals...
_________________
*DISCLAIMER: All posts made by ShadowGator are based strictly on personal opinion and hold no factual basis unless noted and supported by links to far left wing organizations that wish to bring about the fall off all things Republican.
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L-Boy
True Gator
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| volsrock wrote: |
| Quote: |
| However, as much as we dislike these views, to some degree we have to accept is that is their societal view, is a collective choice, is often a function of religion, and is not something we can easily influence. So at what point does it become our business for our government to actively "reform" them? |
When people from their group kill over 3000 Americans in one day!
When people from their group by the "thousdands" chant Death To America! |
Its unlikely we can "reform" them. Best we can do is probably protect ourselves and our national interest. Engaging on a giant middle eastern Jesus Christ crusade is going to fail.
Attacking people who fly airplanes into buildings is one thing. Attacking countries whose citizens chant death to America is another. That would put us in perpetual wars with about a dozen countries. Which is fine for you, because you will never serve, nor is it likely your rugrat will either. Its easy for you to call for other americans deaths and sacrifices behind your PC screen.
Not sure why I am even bothering responding to this particular poster.
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Thunder Lizard
True Gator
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 974
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| I generally agree with cat's and Lboy's first posts in answer to your post DG. The other thing I would find suspect with the account you provided was the indication that the terrorists or whatever they call themselves didn't know the difference between British and Americans. The British Empire was involved in that part of the world for 3 centruries at least before the current one. They fought numerous wars with the tribes in Pakistan. It is inconcievable to me that the people in that region wouldn't be familiar with the former British presence in their country if by nothing else than the oral history of that contact.
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L-Boy
True Gator
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 740
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| While there are some that are certainly clueless regarding who we are fighting and the backwardness of their views, I think most people get it. Continually harping on their backwardness is only setting up a straw man. The issue is what, if anything, we do about it. This is a phenomenon we are not going to "defeat" with war. Its not a nationality thing, it is cultural and religious based. Continuing to fight it, in the hopes of changing people, especially if fought in the wrong way, actually makes it worse long term.
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ShadowGator
Big Gator
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 1605
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: |
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All boils down to, what right do we have to say they need to be like us? If they attack us, we hit them back... if they call us names who cares? We have plenty of our own who call them names and make threats... fair play for both sides... rhetoric will always happen. If they want to live in a tribal backwater way, let them... we don't need to save them, reform them, and certainly shouldn't be there trying to convert them.
_________________
*DISCLAIMER: All posts made by ShadowGator are based strictly on personal opinion and hold no factual basis unless noted and supported by links to far left wing organizations that wish to bring about the fall off all things Republican.
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ncargat1
Sophomore Gator
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 197
Location: Too Far From Gainesville
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Please Read: What we are fighting against. |
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| DetroitGator wrote: |
Honestly folks, the only way to change the world (regardless of religion) is through literacy, and unfortunately, in Islamic lands, there is ZERO incentive for mullah's to have a literate population and I really don't see any way of changing the schools without conquering/occupying the countries and educating everyone, men and women.
So really, our only choices are containment (which really wasn't working out so well either) or direct involvement (which is starting to work out in Iraq, I don't know that t will ever work in Afghanistan which is and may always be in the tribal stoneage).
But here is my point. For all of you who think that one can reason with or negotiate with everyone, this is the ignorance we are dealing with when you say that, so keep it in mind. Now I know this guy is a tribal man from Waziristan and some of you may say that he is not a good example, but I promise you this, Ahmadenijad and the religious leaders of Iran are better educated, but no less ignorant... remember, there are no gay people in Iran, they don't have that phenomenon like we do, and the Holocaust never happened. |
So my counter point is that invading countries and using guns is exactly what empowers the extremists. However, Waziristan is, without a doubt a dangerous place, most Afghans and Pakistanis understand that. So, yes, there small tribal areas where reason will fail, and that is where the Pakistani and Afghan authorities must step in. However, to say that we must invade a country and jam our education down there throats as teh ONLY way to improve that country is.....well, exactly the same thing these Islamic extremists want to do. So, in many way, thinking such as yours is in lock step with the very people you claim to oppose. And, while I do not have all the answers, I have decided that I will personally support education in Pakistan and Afghanistan through the Private (no US Govt involvement) Central Asia Institute, and allow the people who do have some answers to continue to do their work.
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The tribal communities of northern Pakistan taught Mortenson a critical lesson in our first five years of existence: sustainable and successful development can only occur when projects are entirely initiated, implemented and managed by local communities. It is also important to listen and learn from the local communities served, rather than impose external evaluations or judgment of what is best from an outsider’s perspective. The philosophy to empower the local people through their own initiative is at the heart of all CAI programs. As of 2008, Central Asia Institute has successfully established 64 schools in Pakistan and Afghanistan, which provide (or have provided) education to over 25,000 students, with a emphasis on girls’ education. A few additional projects have been in Mongolia (rural health education) and Kyrgyzstan (teacher training scholarships). Over the first decade of CAI’s evolution, our programs and projects expanded to several regions of Pakistan and Afghanistan with an emphasis on education, health issues, environment and cultural preservation.
Central Asia Institute community projects continue to focus primarily in remote, underserved regions where few organizations serve. Since 2005, CAI refined and focused its’ priority to focus mainly on rural education and literacy, especially for females. This also includes ongoing teacher training programs, to establish libraries, and provide temporary education in regions of natural disaster or crisis. CAI also continues to pioneer and promote education in regions where there a few or no education opportunities. We now put more resources into sustainable initiatives, to improve the quality of education, support teacher training, and help motivated students to achieve their education goals with higher education. We are reducing the number of new schools built and funds put into mere brick and mortar to build school buildings. |
Central Asia Institute
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
-Edmund Burke (1727-1779)
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spurdog
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Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 1026
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: |
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TL:
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| I generally agree with cat's and Lboy's first posts in answer to your post DG. The other thing I would find suspect with the account you provided was the indication that the terrorists or whatever they call themselves didn't know the difference between British and Americans. The British Empire was involved in that part of the world for 3 centruries at least before the current one. They fought numerous wars with the tribes in Pakistan. It is inconcievable to me that the people in that region wouldn't be familiar with the former British presence in their country if by nothing else than the oral history of that contact. |
Do you think the Klan drew a distinction between true Africans, African-Americans and Jews or were they all sub humans in the eyes of God? I think the people that DG are referring too think of "americans" as anyone that is also an infidel.
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10 out of 10 terrorists agree.....anybody but McCain.
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catsigater
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Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 1444
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| spurdog wrote: |
TL:
| Quote: |
| I generally agree with cat's and Lboy's first posts in answer to your post DG. The other thing I would find suspect with the account you provided was the indication that the terrorists or whatever they call themselves didn't know the difference between British and Americans. The British Empire was involved in that part of the world for 3 centruries at least before the current one. They fought numerous wars with the tribes in Pakistan. It is inconcievable to me that the people in that region wouldn't be familiar with the former British presence in their country if by nothing else than the oral history of that contact. |
Do you think the Klan drew a distinction between true Africans, African-Americans and Jews or were they all sub humans in the eyes of God? I think the people that DG are referring too think of "americans" as anyone that is also an infidel. |
That may be true. The journalist DG mentioned is British.
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- Albert Einstein
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Thunder Lizard
True Gator
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 974
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| catsigater wrote: |
| spurdog wrote: |
TL:
| Quote: |
| I generally agree with cat's and Lboy's first posts in answer to your post DG. The other thing I would find suspect with the account you provided was the indication that the terrorists or whatever they call themselves didn't know the difference between British and Americans. The British Empire was involved in that part of the world for 3 centruries at least before the current one. They fought numerous wars with the tribes in Pakistan. It is inconcievable to me that the people in that region wouldn't be familiar with the former British presence in their country if by nothing else than the oral history of that contact. |
Do you think the Klan drew a distinction between true Africans, African-Americans and Jews or were they all sub humans in the eyes of God? I think the people that DG are referring too think of "americans" as anyone that is also an infidel. |
That may be true. The journalist DG mentioned is British. |
Any thing is "possible" in an infinite world. I am just saying in a country where formal education is not widespread, oral history takes the place of that formal education. And the Brits did have a long history in Pakistan and left an impact.
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catsigater
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Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 1444
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Thunder Lizard wrote: |
| catsigater wrote: |
| spurdog wrote: |
TL:
| Quote: |
| I generally agree with cat's and Lboy's first posts in answer to your post DG. The other thing I would find suspect with the account you provided was the indication that the terrorists or whatever they call themselves didn't know the difference between British and Americans. The British Empire was involved in that part of the world for 3 centruries at least before the current one. They fought numerous wars with the tribes in Pakistan. It is inconcievable to me that the people in that region wouldn't be familiar with the former British presence in their country if by nothing else than the oral history of that contact. |
Do you think the Klan drew a distinction between true Africans, African-Americans and Jews or were they all sub humans in the eyes of God? I think the people that DG are referring too think of "americans" as anyone that is also an infidel. |
That may be true. The journalist DG mentioned is British. |
Any thing is "possible" in an infinite world. I am just saying in a country where formal education is not widespread, oral history takes the place of that formal education. And the Brits did have a long history in Pakistan and left an impact. |
Granted. My thought process in agreeing with spur's last comment was that it seemed from DG's retelling of the story that the chieftain made no such distinction between English speakers (something you pointed out, too). If he did make the distinction, and also knew that his captive was British, it wouldn't seem so threatening to me for the journalist to simply agree that those crazy Americans do have some strange practices.
"Not knowing the difference between Americans and the British" isn't quite the same as not drawing a distinction between them. But I agree that point in DG's story does bring up questions.
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